Ever Onward Podcast

Sauna & Cold Plunge: The Science of Contrast Therapy (Sleep, Recovery, Dopamine) - Spencer Crosland | Ever Onward - Ep. 106

• Ahlquist. • Season 1 • Episode 106

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Cold plunging and sauna aren’t just trends—they’re ancient recovery tools now backed by modern neuroscience, cardiovascular research, and metabolic science.

This episode is part of the Ever Onward Podcast’s January Health & Longevity Series, where Tommy Ahlquist and co-host Andy Scoggin explore the habits, science, and mindsets that extend both healthspan and lifespan. Throughout the month, they’re sitting down with experts and practitioners who live this work to break down what actually moves the needle for long-term performance and vitality.

In this conversation, they’re joined by Spencer Crosland, co-founder of SISU Sauna & Cold Plunge in Meridian, Idaho, to unpack what contrast therapy (heat + cold exposure) really does to the body and brain—and why it’s become one of the most powerful habits for sleep, recovery, resilience, and mental clarity.

Spencer shares how his first intentional cold plunge happened back in 2003 after chipping a hole in a frozen Wyoming lake, long before cold plunging went mainstream. From that experience grew a lifelong respect for controlled stress, grit, and the Finnish concept of “Sisu”—a word that means courage, perseverance, and the ability to do hard things when it matters.

You’ll learn:

  • How sauna impacts cardiovascular health, circulation, inflammation, and detox
  • How cold plunging boosts dopamine, norepinephrine, brown fat, and stress resilience
  • The real difference between 40°F vs 50°F cold plunges
  • Why contrast therapy can dramatically improve sleep quality and recovery
  • Common myths and mistakes people make with cold exposure
  • Simple protocols for beginners (including cold showers vs plunges)
  • The mental toughness and discipline benefits tied to heat and cold stress


Guest: Spencer Crosland

Founder & Co-Owner, SISU Sauna & Cold Plunge

Website: SISUIdaho.com

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Meet Spencer And The Wellness Theme

SPEAKER_01

Today on the Ever Run Word podcast, uh Andy Skulgan and I, uh my co-host will be interviewing Spencer Crossland. He is the founder and owner of CS2 uh uh sonoma and cold plunge in Meridian. Uh it's gonna be great as our our topic this month is on health and wellness, just talking about the science of sonoma and cold plunge, uh contrast uh therapies and how that is affecting fitness. Uh Spencer is a great guy, uh a great family man, and we'll we'll hear a little bit about his story and then talk a lot about sonama and cold plunge. Spencer Crossland, thanks for coming on with me and Andy.

SPEAKER_00

Hey, it's good to be here. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01

We're excited. This month we're on uh wellness and all things health, and we were looking for someone to come on and talk about uh sauna and coal plunge, and I'm like, I think I might know the guy. So uh thanks for coming on.

SPEAKER_00

Hey, it's good to be here, and it's good. I'm excited to talk about sauna and coal plunge.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's uh certainly become uh increasingly popular and a lot of data and research on it. Um, and we can't wait to get into it. But before we do, tell us a little bit about you.

SPEAKER_00

Um I am the seventh of ten kids growing up. I grew up in Kemmer, Wyoming, and I graduated from UVU in a PE degree, got a job teaching.

SPEAKER_01

Isn't there isn't there a great reservoir right by like with big fish in it?

SPEAKER_00

Yes. And that's actually where my first cold place was. What's the name of it? Viva Notten.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah. I've been fishing up there with my father-in-law. We froze.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. It was but it was great. It's great fishing. Well, it was great out. Wyoming was a great outdoors. We were 30, 40 minutes from the mountains. Yeah. We did a lot of hiking, camping, fishing, hunting, all that. So it was a great place to grow up. But I graduated from UVU. I taught for a couple of years, and ended up that's what brought us here eventually because I I failed the test by one point. Um, so I came to Idaho in 2019 and we got into construction. We were doing real estate and flipping houses, and then real estate got expensive. And and my wife is from Melba, and so that's what kind of brought us to Idaho because it was a new area and a lot going on here. And anyway, didn't know that I would have liked Idaho because I was like, man, Wyoming is just so good. But it snowed every Mother's Day when we were living in Wyoming. And that's a long winter. Oh, it was super long winter.

SPEAKER_01

Now, Andy, does it even snow here anymore?

Sauna Spark And The Birth Of Sisu

SPEAKER_00

I don't think it will, it will. It will, it will. But um, love Idaho, and uh so when we were doing uh construction, I was like, hey, we need to do something else. And so we started a bounce house company, um, which my kids love. It's a great summer seasonal job. But then I was starting at the dinner table one day, just watching my three-year-old E. I was like, we need to do something else. Because we're feeding a lot of mouths and we need more grocery money. And so how many kids again? We have eight children, ranging from one to thirteen, one to fourteen. One more, and it's a baseball team. You are a human bounce house. Oh man, I am. Um, but it's fun. I I love family. We again, my wife and I come from big families, and so we just love kids and raising them, and uh it's a good time. So, how did bounce house take you into sauna? You know, so we went to on our seventh child, my wife's chiropractic, like, hey, you need to go to a sauna to relax. Your muscles are tight, go relax. And so we scheduled something on our birthday, and this is kind of like how CSU actually came about, how we thought of it and why we thought of it. And so we went to a sauna place, and I was like, hey, we can go to dinner afterwards, your birthday. They're like, Well, they don't have showers. And uh a quote from my wife's cousin, he said, All the businesses, ideas, they're out there. You just need to get one and improve it. And so after the sauna place, I was like, Oh my gosh, we're gonna do the same thing, but we're gonna have the traditional sauna, which I grew up with, right? Sneaking in the Kemmer Rec center when I wasn't old enough, or the basement of the place.

SPEAKER_02

And so when you say traditional, this is the dry sauna.

SPEAKER_00

Correct.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so in water on the rocks, right? Steam, woo wood lined walls, the all the things we think of from Norway or Finland or whatever. Yeah.

The Meaning Of Sisu And Finnish Roots

SPEAKER_00

Where when you walk into them, they're 170 plus. Right. 170 to 200 degrees. Yeah. And so when you get in there, you're not in there for very long. I mean 20 minutes. I'll keep mine at 185. Yeah. Oh, so great. Makes me just feel good just thinking about the 185. But we went to the sauna place, and I was like, oh, great, we're gonna do the same thing, but with traditional saunas and showers, and then we are evolving. Hey, let's do a salt room and a salt tub and uh a wet sauna, and let's do all these wonderful things. And then we were telling this somebody this, it was my brother-in-law, he's like, What about a cold plunge? And it was like lightning because I was thinking of Lake Viva Notten in 2003. My brothers and I came up with this wild and crazy idea. I grew up with there's seven boys in my family. We came up with this wild and crazy idea of chipping a hole in the ice and jumping in. And we were telling people we're gonna do this. Seven boys would come up with that idea. But they the community's like, you guys are going to die. Because this was before coal plunging was only done by athletes at the time. Yeah, that's the only people that would do it. And the first time we did it, I got a picture of it because again, we didn't have cell phones and it was all just with digital cameras. I got a rope tied around me because we didn't know what was going to happen when I jumped in. Right. And so when I jumped in, my brother's like, he was gone. Because it's just you go down the ice 18 inches, that's how deep the ice was, it's just black. And I came right up out of the middle, and we're all just screaming and yelling, and yeah, this is so fun. And so that was my very first intentional cold plunge. And I didn't know what cold again, it wasn't a cold plunge to me, it was just doing something crazy with the brothers. And then we did it every year after that.

SPEAKER_01

But when I when somebody mentioned cold plunge to me when we were thinking who would have thought that jackass the movie Wyoming version becomes the career later on. Uh yeah, life is life is a circle.

SPEAKER_00

For real. Um, I actually had a good friend that's living here now that I grew up with. He he texted me when I started this business and he said, You were cold plunging before cold plunging was cool. Anyway, the lightning bolts, it made me think of how I felt after doing this jump, we call it Wyoming hot tub. Um, after we did this Wyoming hot tub, how I felt. And it was like, man, it was it just felt so good. And like I didn't have, I was 21 years old when I did it, so I don't have the aches and pains that I do now when I wake up in the morning, but it just felt so good. And so then we were looking at sauna and cold plunge, like, oh my gosh, contrast therapy, putting your body extreme hot and extreme cold, and the benefits were like, okay, this is our next business. And so we did we came up with the business in 2023. That's when we started Sisu, Sauna, and Cold Plunge. Talk about Sisu.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, talking about talking about Sisu.

SPEAKER_02

Tell us that name. Where's Sisu?

SPEAKER_00

Is that uh oh well, I've learned it's actually coming, it comes from several languages, but it for us it came from the Finnish language. Okay. So sauna is actually a Finnish word, also, and that was pronounced sauna. I got criticized one time because I called it a sauna. In America, that's what we call it, but it's sauna. So we are on a double date with some friends, and they he had served an LDS mission in Finland, and so we are talking about words and language and saunas, and and Sisu came up, and then we looked up Sisu and what it meant. We're like, oh my gosh, that is an incredible word for cold plunging, especially, but sauna as well. So tell us what it means. What did you see in the definition? Anticipation, right? Yeah, so doing something hard for the benefit at the end grit, perseverance, courage, and so like.

SPEAKER_01

That's I'm gonna I just hold him back here, but let's rip. So my son went to Finland on his mission, and so we have this beautiful love affair with Finland for a lot of reasons, and he does too, and we hear about the country. We I haven't been over there yet, but he just loved it. And then Marlene Tromp, the president of Boys State University, right? Very like her mother was full Finnish. And as I got to know her uh a few years ago, it's it's it's a great story because there was this connection because my son went there and my son still spoke some Finnish. But then I'm I'm having dinner with her, and she has uh she has a tattoo on her arm that is a white. I didn't I've never even known anyone that does this, but that she has a white tattoo, so you can't see it unless you look really closely, but it says Sisu. And I'm like, tell me about Sisu. And I wrote this down because the the exact translation is stoic determination, tenacity of purpose, grit, bravery, and resilience. And she went into the phone.

SPEAKER_02

And there's a picture of Tommy in the dictionary next to that picture.

Grit, Brain Science, And Willpower

SPEAKER_01

Well, she went into this long, she went into this long discussion and get pretty emotional about just how there is not a word in English that translates to this. And and for her, this has been her motto her whole life from her mother, and it's just it's just this incredible story. So we have this connection because of it. And then so I I love the word, I'm I'm glad we went deep on it.

SPEAKER_02

And and you listened to Andrew Huberman. He got really um interested in this concept um of one part of the brain, or yes, it's called the mid-interior cingulate cortex, right? And it's the crucial brain hub for uh integrating emotions, cognition, motivation, acts as a control center for our effort, decision making, and self-regulation. And here's what's important it's our key for willpower, the mid-interior cingulate cortex, and for grit and for price. So you use the word grit. And interestingly, this region physically grows. They can measure the growth when you consistently do challenging things and improving, it then improves your capacity to manage more stress and tackle more adversity, linking uh to better resilience and longevity. So the mid-singular interior cortex is being triggered. And the only thing that is bad about this for Tommy is that what the research says is you got to dislike it. So once you start liking it, it stops growing. Um and he likes his cold plungers. But I don't think you like the first 30 seconds no matter what.

SPEAKER_01

So I start, I started, I've started faithfully six months. I'm six months into it. Faithful. Every morning, three minutes. Um, and um it's been I of all the things I've done in my life for my health, I I'm just uh addicted's probably the right word. I feel different when I don't do it. I do three minutes every morning. Um I it's just it it has to be the other thing I love about it is there's a lot of things that you can make an excuse for if you don't have time, if it's an hour or even if it's a half hour. But three minutes, you're you know, you're just wimping out. If you can't go get in it, it there's no there's no excuse. I'm late for the airport, I'm late for whatever. I have three minutes to go gold plunge. So I started it uh six months ago and it's it's been amazing. I do think before I started this, I did the deep dive science-wise. And I think the Finnish people, I mean the Scandinavian people have been doing this forever. Oh I mean, sometimes we act like this is new to us, but they're their contrast therapy, right? Their sauna, and and you know, and Marlene would tell you that when they pour, it's a very spiritual thing for them too, because it's a community thing. So they're in a sauna, they're they're all in there together, they have the hot rocks, they pour the the water on the hot rocks, and and there's a very spiritual thing for them that the the steam that comes off it is significant, the the community you're in is significant. So sauna is a very important part of it, but then it's immediately followed by cold therapy. Yeah. If you look at the science and research that's been done on this, that contrast therapy, they've been kind of doing the protocol that shows the most results for I don't know how long, thousands of years, probably. But uh but that 20 minutes sauna, three minutes cold plunge, 20 sauna, three minutes cold plunge. You're supposed to end on cold, so it cold, cold, hot, cold, hot, cold. Anyway, I'm talking too much, but I'm excited to talk to you about the science because it it the science, there's a lot of biohacks out there, you know. The science behind behind sauna and cold plunge. Um, there's a lot of literature on this.

Community, Culture, And Shared Ritual

SPEAKER_02

And and and the reason I pointed out this you know, portion of the brain that's impact is because a lot of what I first started hearing about was, you know, cardiovascular, which it absolutely shows value to. And um, you know, in um brown fat and metabolism and all those things. But then we don't even realize there's a mental improvement uh that's going on as well that that is, you know, we're all connected, uh the body and the mind. But it's it's really cool to see that um come out because we didn't read nearly as much 10 years about that part of it. So you got even another reason to be wanting to do this. I was in Oslo, Norway, in the spring, last spring, and they have these floating platforms on the in the river that goes through the middle of uh Oslo, and they have a um little building on them, which is their sauna, and they're little clubs, like I think people belong to them, and then there is a ladder off it into the river, and so they're just doing it right there in the freezing river, pop in, pop out, get, you know, and I just saw these people hanging out, talking to each other, jumping in, jumping out. It, as you said, is community. So there's so we're adding that social aspect in many cultures to it versus just doing it as a, you know, I'm gonna go and and and really focus on how I improve, you know, my little measurements. It's oh, we do this because we're family, we're friends, we do this together, and that I think is pretty cool as well.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. You know, there is a the social aspect of it because when you get into a sauna, and uh Dr. Schoberg talks about this with Huberman in a book in a podcast, and everyone's equal in the sauna. That's true. And so when you get in the sauna, and I've been in saunas where everyone's equal unless they're naked. And then there's some comparison that goes on.

SPEAKER_01

Let's be honest here, Spencer. That's true. But we I don't know. I've never been in sauna.

SPEAKER_00

So um but there it's true because when you when you get in there, I mean I've had conversations with CEOs in there, and when you don't think about that, and and I've had conversations with so many people where the fence comes down and you tell your story about life, you tell the things that you've done told before, and it's it's amazing the relationships that you can have and gain in a sauna. It's awesome.

SPEAKER_01

Can you go into the science with us? We'll we'll we'll probably chime in with what we think. But it's the guy, the guy that owns this place. I want to hear a little bit. Where are you located?

SPEAKER_02

Just so people know.

SPEAKER_00

So we're located um off uh Silverstone Way on the way to Top Golf Alquist Building. Okay. So Overland, Eagle Exit. Um really brand new building. It's a great location. Yeah, and there's a lot of growth happening right here. So it's it's a great location. We love it.

SPEAKER_01

And talk a little bit about your build out too. Like what do you have in your facility because it's a beautiful facility and what what you offer.

Inside The Facility And Protocols

SPEAKER_00

So we have a 1800 square foot building, and we have two rooms that are designated for contrast therapy. Um, both have a sauna, we we keep them 175 to 200 degrees, and then we have in each of the rooms a cold tub. It looks like a hot tub, but it's a cold tub, and it's cold tub brand. Um, one we keep at 50 degrees, and one we keep at 40 degrees. And so, and we always have somebody working, we offer towels, we have showers in the locker rooms, and we also have in each of the sauna contrast therapy rooms, we have a bucket shower, and that's to rinse off after the sauna detox oil, sweat, um, lotions, people which you learned from that trip with your wife that hey, there ought to be someplace to wash off, right?

SPEAKER_02

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So that was that lightning that and so when they come in, we give them a tour, this is what it's like. And so you have an hour session to do contrast therapy. And so we always recommend ending in cold. Um, sometimes in the evening we end in sauna because it helps relax, go to bed. But some people are like, oh, I end in cold every time, and it makes me go to sleep real easy. So we do for the hour session, we recommend for people to be in the sauna for 15 minutes, take a bucket shower to rinse off, take a cold tub up to five minutes. And then most people are two, three minutes, um, but up to five minutes. And after the cold tub, warm up naturally because there's benefits to warming up naturally, and then you go do it again. And then so up to 15, up to five, warm up naturally, and then you do that three times during your time there. And we always tell people come out, come in 15 minutes early to give you a little bit more time in the sauna. But I know for me, my first time in the sauna, I'm 10 minutes and I'm ready to go in the cold. And that way, for after my cold, I can spend more time in the sauna to get my heart rate up and to get that sweat on.

SPEAKER_02

In the 1990s, I took my oldest daughter and her best friend on a kind of a daddy-daughter trip to Zurich, Switzerland, or all of a sudden we stopped in Zurich and we stayed in this hotel, and they had a cold plunge, which I'd never seen before, and a sauna. And I thought, oh, I'm gonna try this thing. And I got hooked and I thought, why don't we have this? And that was you know decades ago, but uh I love that we have this in Boise now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Uh, can we talk about the science of each? Uh, because it's it's it's it's rich. I mean, I think um, you know, again, I think there's a lot of things out there now that are fad, um, uh, but there's some things that are tried and true. It's kind of nice that sauna and and and coal punch has been doing in several cultures for a long time, some of the healthiest cultures we can model ourselves after. Yeah, but then the actual scientific data behind it. Let's talk about sauna first. What are the physiologic benefits uh for health and uh health span and and lifespan?

SPEAKER_00

So I want to I want to tell one story about the white Indian boy. My wife reads this book to my kids, and it's about Chief Washiki. They go and recruit this white boy in Utah. He's guarding his watching a sheep, he's like, hey, come with us. We want to, we'll give you a pony. So he goes with him and he gets sick one time, and so they put him in the sweat tent and then they threw him in the river. And so, again, this has been around for in many areas of the world for a long, long time.

SPEAKER_02

And they knew that this would break the fever, whatever he needed, that it would help the body to get that. Yeah, I'm guessing that's where the benefit came from.

SPEAKER_00

And I've had people come to me at at CSU and say, I just read a book the other day that here in the Snake River, they'd have a sweat tent, the Indians have a sweat tent, and then they go jump in the snake river. So again, it's been around for quite a long time.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, people I I I geek out on some things, but but the name Cuna means wood because they by the Snake River, it's where they would that that that would that was the place that they would stop, set up camp, get the wood that was in the area next to the river for their for their their you know, for all th all uses. But but yeah, that's Snake River. It's just sitting right here. So there's been people doing this a lot longer than we've been doing it.

Sauna Physiology And Longevity

SPEAKER_00

So in the sauna, when you're in the sauna, the the blood go gets out of your core because your core tries to stay the same temperature. Whether you're hot or cold. And so blood goes throughout your body, and that's what makes you sweat. So your blood vessels dilate. And so your heart has to pump harder to get that blood running through your body. And so with that, you know, it's odd that inflammation is one of those things that happens in the sauna, but it does, the sauna does help with inflammation because it's getting the inflamed parts of your body, it's getting body blood moving throughout your body.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and I think people don't realize on that, just to jump in, um, you know, your heart pumps a significant amount of your blood volume with each beat, but then your blood vessels are the activity of those blood vessels is what pumps that blood as well. So it makes sense that it's it's it I I like to describe it as exercising your cardiovascular system, both at the blood vessel level and at the heart level. And for me, I last night when I was in there, uh I hadn't taken my pulse in there for a while, but I I'll get up to 140, 160. You know, I'm I'm at 180 is what my sauna goes to. And I usually do, I'm doing red light therapy in there now, so I do 15 minutes of red light therapy in the sauna, and then the red light goes off and I stay for another story. So I'm up to 30 minutes. Uh, and I get up there and it's super comfortable for me. I'm usually listening to some interesting book or podcast I'm listening to, and I'm, you know, I get my humidity right where I like it. And, you know, for me, I I was cold plunging at night right after and doing that routine, but I sleep better when I don't. So I and I just love the cold plunge in the morning for me. But um, but it it's it's relaxing. It, you know, uh sometimes I gotta tell one other really funny story. So I start doing this, and my and I usually get into something and I get really into it, and and then I sometimes it sticks, sometimes it doesn't. I know this is for you, Andy, too. Like, what's the next thing you need to get into? But that's how you learn. That's how you learn. So I got a sauna in my house, and so I I we put it in there when we build it, but I really didn't use it very often. And then I really go head, I mean, I start studying the research, and I'm going into this, and I'm like, okay, five, and I've got some heart problems, so you know, I'm gonna do this five days a week, do or die. And I order, I order my wool hat, and I'm I'm and then I thought I'm gonna start meditating in there. So I get some meditations that I can do in there, and I don't tell Shanna any of this. Yeah, so the wool hat comes on Amazon and I get it and take it out and put it in there, and I didn't hide it from her, she just didn't see it come. And then I had all these meditations that I downloaded. So she's she's coming in to check on me, and I'm sitting in there meditating with a wool hat on. It's like one of those moments in our marriage. She opens the door to the sauna and she says, You have completely lost your mind. What are you like where like have you been abducted? Where did you get that hat and what are you doing in here? Because I'm in there actually doing a meditation anyway. It's a great story. What's the wool hat? I don't know this. Oh, the wool hat. So the uh in sauna is like the uh if you wear a wool hat, it does two things. One, it helps your hair. So your hair doesn't get that hot, and it just contains some of the heat you would otherwise lose. So so most people that do this wear a wool hat when they're in there.

SPEAKER_00

And it so the wool hat, and Huberman talks about it in one of his podcasts. It it it's kind of an insulation for a thermostat that's in your brain telling you that you're hot. Got it. So if the sauna is hard for you, wear a hat, put a towel on.

SPEAKER_01

So ironically, it makes it easier having a wool hat on, and it's it's also good for your hair and it makes you sweat more. Yeah. So it really helps in all ways. Yeah. But they're they're they look like buckets. And if you hadn't seen it come in the mail, you can only imagine how alarming it is, especially when your husband is 6'4 in a meditation position, uh, with red light shining on him. And yeah, it was uh it was a moment. Keep going.

Dopamine, Energy, And Morning Cold

SPEAKER_00

Um So Else, what else in the sauna? It uh It will get you ready to get in the cold plunge. Yeah. Um, because your your heart rate gets up, your skin temperature gets up. Let's talk about skin. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, no, you're good. But think about that, think about the exercise of your skin now, right? So toxins. That's the other thing nowadays. They'll say if you take a dose of glutathione before, you go into the sauna you go into the sauna, you sit and sweat for 20 minutes, 30 minutes, just just with the toxins we have in the world, we have and the exercise it is to your skin, which is your most important organ. So you're you're working out your heart, you're working out your blood vessels, you're working out your skin every single day every single time you're in there. I think that's then it goes back to the results. If you look at all-time mortality and cardiovascular disease and all the studies that have been done that are really well documented in the scientific literature, um, it it does both life span and health span for people that do it. And it's it's just not even debated. I mean, I think it the number they'll say is if you can do it three to four times a week for 20 minutes a time, um, it will improve both of those. But that's why you're exercising your skin, you're exercising your heart, you're exercising your blood vessels.

SPEAKER_02

So let me ask you one other, because this is the you know, the last 10 years, more and more we hear about inflammation. So you've talked about these other things about pumping the blood, getting um toxins up, but I have read and heard some information about, and and I think sports trainers going back to when I was in high school, we're putting people in ice baths, yeah, et cetera, with this concept that it was supposed to reduce the inflammation after really intensive workouts, et cetera. Where's the science on that?

SPEAKER_01

Two things. I think we're now really studying mitochondrial health. So if you think about the mitochondria, which is the little energy-producing thing in every cell in your body, and and that's what when you start aging, it's your mitochondria that just over time don't function as well. Mitochondria require oxygen. That's why you could argue VO2 max, exercise, getting more oxygen into your body. So I think even though the inflammation that can be caused from a stressor on your body, think about the opposite.

SPEAKER_02

No, that's what I'm reading, is that this actually helps to reduce that the that the number one cause of aging over and over again seems to be coming back to inflammation, and that this contrast therapy trains your body in some way that I don't fully understand, but you're scientists, you know. But it's helping us on throughout the day to carry a lower inflammation load, is what I'm hearing. So we're reading.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so what it'll do, it does two things. On the on the sauna side, it helps to it helps with that oxygen delivery, if you think about that. I mean, you're exercising the thing that's gonna make it easier for your body to oxygen to get the oxygen to your mitochondria. Second thing it does, all the cytokinines and all the things that come from inflammation. Now you're gonna do the cold and contrast therapy. That's the magic combo, right? Um, and that's why these cultures that do this, if you look at the data, you're like, oh, okay, that's it. Um did I miss anything?

SPEAKER_00

Um the what gets released while you're in the sauna. Yeah. Um the uh norepinephrine, yeah, epinephrine, dopamine, um, their their levels get higher in the cold plunge, but they do get released in the sauna as well. Yeah.

40 Vs 50 Degrees And Adaptation

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah. We can talk about that for a long time. But I think if if you look at the data on just the the you study dopamine alone, it gets to your point, gets released both of those. But but if you do cold plunge in the morning, I mean that's the way to start your morning. I think that's why it's so addicting after you get past, and it is sad because you get over to that thing where I don't want to do this, but I'm gonna do it. I don't want to do this, I'm gonna do it. Now you're like, I'm first 10 seconds never gets easy. But I think you get this immediate release of dopamine in the morning, you know, norepinephrine, epinephrine, you're like, okay, here we go for your day, right?

SPEAKER_02

And even energy, right? Don't you have a different level of energy for that first couple hours after you've done it?

SPEAKER_01

Mental clarity, ability to focus, all of those things.

SPEAKER_00

I made sure I did a sauna cold punch before I came here. I make sure I was focused. It's obvious, yeah. We're seeing it. But no, something that you mentioned is doing hard things, it's hard every time. That well, the 50 for me and and at CSU is that talk about the talk about the two because 40 is not 50. Yeah, it 10 degrees. You think, oh you think in the summertime seven degrees?

SPEAKER_02

You're saying 40, 50, you're saying 40 degree tubs and you have 50 degree tubs? Yeah, I've got one with one that's 40 and one that's 50.

SPEAKER_01

Mine at home, I'll tell you, when I first got it, I set it at 40. And then Shanna started. Am I crazy? Well, Shanna says, I want to start doing this too. I was doing it at 40. She said, Can we move it to 50? And I and I did some research, and the research will say it kind of probably doesn't matter from the physiological thing. So I move mine to 50, and I get in and I'm like, oh, this is like being on the beach. This is like there is a there is a significant difference between the two.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. And like you said, the 50, I go sit in, it's like, oh, it's the beach. But that 40 every single time is so it's hard. Yeah. But that's where CSU comes in. So do you do different ones depending on the day, or do you always go 40? I I switch it up because you don't again, something that was mentioned earlier, getting comfortable. Yeah. We want to get out of our comfort zone. We want to make our put our put our body into stress a little bit. Got it. It's controlled stress. And so the sauna is stressful because it's 200 degrees. Cold plunges 50, 40. They're both hard, they're both difficult. Um, the 50 degree is more popular because we get a lot of first timers. The women tend to love the 50, but people that come regularly, they always graduate and go to the 40. But it's always good to go back to the 50 and then to the 40 because again, it's it's being uncomfortable. And that 40 is it's hard. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

We have a um hot tub up in our cabin up in the mountains. And our inevitably, when it's the winter and it's just snowed and there's you know a foot or two of snow right next to it. Uh one of my grown kids goes, Okay, who's getting out? And it's hundred and uh whatever, you know, very warm, lovely, 103-degree hot tub, and then get out and roll in the snow. And you get back in, and it's like your whole body is tingling. Yeah. And I'm guessing that's I'm not a cold plunge guy yet, you're convincing me, but I'm guessing when you get out and end up back in the sauna, it's like your whole body's just still vibrating, right?

Brown Fat, Metabolism, And Cold

SPEAKER_01

You know, I it's it's I let's talk a little bit about that. So I I'm six months in, and and I've listened I've tried a lot of things that have been a habit. And one of the things I'll I'll say for those listening that haven't tried any of this, there are some things you try that you know you need to do, but maybe you don't get the immediate gratification in your life. So maybe it's harder to keep doing. I think with sauna and cold plunge, you you want to do it. You feel the difference. So it makes it easier, even the inconvenience or or having to figure out how to do it. But but you just do it. But the other thing that happens is when you first start, I mean, I remember the first weeks of doing it, I would just shiver. I'd get to like two minutes because I have a big clock, I hit the button and it counts me down from three minutes. I'd get to two minutes and I'd be shivering in there, and I just would be, oh, this is misery for me. And then I'd get out, I'd get a towel on, I was, and and you're not supposed to warm up. So, so you so I I would either, if it's in the morning, I'd go take a cold shower and get ready for work. But the whole morning I was miserable to the point now, Andy, where I I get out.

SPEAKER_02

Do you dunk your head or do you just go after shoulders? I go.

SPEAKER_01

I go to my shoulders just because um yeah, I don't know why. I just I think I think at that point it's probably good. But I don't know.

SPEAKER_02

Do you dunk your head? Head or not? I dunk my head. Okay. And and that just rips the breath out of your body, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00

It does. It and it just again, it's you're it's refreshing getting out of the cold. Yeah. But when you dunk your head, it's like it just feels a little bit better.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00

So I just do it as I'm getting out. I just the last rollback as you're getting in. As I'm getting out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But I I I will now when I get out in the morning, like this, I'm only six months into this, I'll get out, I'll towel off, I'll go into my I'll go into the bath, I'll go into my bathroom to get ready for work, I'll shave, I'll I don't ever I don't ever shiver. Um, which is interesting, you know, at my adaptation at my age, my adaptation to my body. Um early on, if I would go outside and take care of my animals, go out on the farm and do stuff, I would just think, oh, it's miserable. I'm just cold all day and I'd come to work cold and I don't so I think the adaptation, even at 58 years old, um, with six months, it's only been six months. So I I sometimes think to myself, oh man, if I could do this for a year, right? Can I get to a year out and then two years and what's it gonna do? But I I think it's very the the results are very uh obvious, I think.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely, and that has to do with brown fats. Yeah. So yesterday I was working outside in the rain, cold. It was cold and windy. And I thought to myself, why am I not shivering? If this was me two years ago, I would have been shivering.

SPEAKER_01

So talk about brown fat, white fat. Let's let's go into it. You brought it up. Let's go deep.

SPEAKER_00

So brown fat gets activated when you're in the cold, whether it's cold wind, a shower, and there's a lot of research. Um, Scoburg, um, as Huberman calls it, the Schoberg principles ending in cold. But when you're getting in the cold, it activates and grows your brown fat. Brown fat is a good fat to have. Women tend women are and uh what's the word are built with more brown fat naturally. So they tend to, and I knew this before I learned about them having more, but they tend to sit in the cold tub better than men do, typically. Okay. Um they still go to the 50 because it's more comfortable.

SPEAKER_01

And then there's a lot of data, like if you're if you're a rancher and you're outside or you live in a cold climate, if you're in Alaska or in a in a Scandinavian country, because you're outside so much and the kids you just grow up that way, they have more brown fat uh naturally. But you but is that it's why do I want it?

SPEAKER_02

What's great about it?

SPEAKER_01

Metabolic metabolically, it burns more calories. It's just shown to be it's healthy fat that burns calories, it's an active fat. Um, it it's you know, it's a nice marker for health, is what uh what it can show.

Getting Started At Home And Showers

SPEAKER_00

And being in the intentional cold plunging or cold weather, it helps grow it, helps activate it, so it makes it so you can adapt to it better. It's like Tommy's not shivering anymore because his brown fat has been routinely activated, and so it's easier for him to to endure through the cold.

SPEAKER_01

It's actually it's actually remarkable from where I and it's just six months. And now I I actually thought, because now you know it's just colder in our, you know, you got the summer, and maybe that, well, it's gonna be the middle of winter. Is it gonna be different when I'm going outside now and it's 35 degrees in the morning versus but it but my cold adaptation of my ability to just is different in in a very short span, which is pretty incredible, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And you know, thinking growing up from Wyoming, I I think I wear shorts all year round, except for on Sundays. But people are like, You're crazy. Why are you wearing shorts? Like, it's not cold to me. And I don't I I'm pretty sure because the winters in Wyoming are cold. I think I grew up activating my brown fats, and so it's easier for me to wear not as much clothes in the wintertime. I still wear a jacket, and but yeah, brown fats are pretty amazing for our bodies, and cold plunging or getting in cold is good for that.

SPEAKER_01

Um, this is going by really fast. I want to make sure we hit for those listening. So, for those that are new to this and saying, hey, I want to try this, there's lots of different ways. Uh you can get online and just look at the ways you can do these therapies at home. Sauna's a little harder, uh, but lots of places have sauna's Cisu here and in Meridian has both uh conveniently. I Ryan Cleverly, my partner here, they do it once a week as a family. Yeah, they all go in together, all as kids, and they make sure they at least go once a week and they love it as a family, but it's a social thing for them uh here. Uh but but but cold plunge can be everything from getting in an uh animal water trough at you know putting ice buckets into it to having the different ones that circ recirculate the cold water.

SPEAKER_02

So I was listening to a really good, very um uh easy to listen to um cardiovascular doctor who has you know been teaching about a lot of stuff you've been talking about, you know, I've been talking about in terms of protocols. But he's recently started looking a lot more at cold and hot plunge or uh cold plunge and and heat and he said that for the first six months he just turned the shower to cold. Yeah. And he said that is it's not the same as plunging, but it is a great introduction to it. And he said it cut him going.

SPEAKER_01

I will argue it's harder because when I first did this, my the water that comes out of my well is usually about 57 degrees. And I was filling our tub, and I was doing it, but it was a pain, right? You have to wait for your tub to fill. Yeah, and so I then I was doing research and it said, hey, do the shower. So I started, well, if it's 57 degrees, I'll just turn on a cold shower. I think it's actually a little harder. Yeah. Because the water's moving and rushing across to you.

SPEAKER_02

He said he was really cheap and didn't want to invest until he knew he was gonna do it.

SPEAKER_01

But but it but he he he said you could do it. But the research shows it is as effective. So so just taking a cold shower, especially if their water gets cold enough, uh, you know, three minutes is is is it's a long time in a cold shower. It's a long time in a cold shower. I I think it's harder than cold plunging. What do you think?

SPEAKER_00

I think I agree. It's harder for me to be in the cold, to be in the shower than the cold.

SPEAKER_01

Well, some of it's just the static. Once you get in the cold plunge, your your body will get that little static layer of of of if you don't move, it's you're just more the barrier, it kind of thermalizes you a little bit. Yeah, and I think in the shower we got cold water.

Red Light, Stacking, And Access

SPEAKER_00

You can't do it. So Wim Hof, you probably heard of Wim Hof. He does a iceman breathwork iceman. He tells people start with a cold shower. And I get so many people that's like, I've done the shower, I'm ready to do the cold plunge. And I say, it's it's easier, actually. For me, it was. Um, but the having having the sauna with a cold is, and that's the thing that a lot of people don't have access to is the saunas. Everybody has access to cold. You can take a cold shower, put ice in the tub. Uh when you add that sauna to it, it it doubles, triples the benefits of adding the hot and the cold. Yeah, but the showers are great, that's a good starting, starting point for the cold plunge.

SPEAKER_02

You mentioned people don't all have saunas in it. I agree. We I mentioned we put together or we built a cabin up in the mountains and for all our family to be at. And for whatever reason, the architects put four bathrooms in the downstairs. I'm going, I don't need or three, three, four, four. And I said, I don't need that. And I thought, could we put a sign in there? So I asked the general contractor, he goes, Yeah, we'll figure that out. And it was just afterthought. We put it in there. When we have friends that come visit, summer or winter, it's the most popular room in our cabin. Yeah. Like there's six people in there all the time. They go in the summer, jump in the lake, swim, come out, get in the sauna. In the winter, go ski, go um snowshoe, whatever we do, get in the sauna. And they just love that room. And they're all talking and laughing about what they just did. And that's the the social part of it too. No wool hats so far. No meditation so far. I don't think people love that room.

SPEAKER_00

I don't think it's belong where gonna be long where every house is built with a sauna.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I I do think from a construction perspective, um, at our new house, uh, me and my dad just build our own. Um, you know, you you put basically waterproof sheetrock up, tape it, and then we put in our own, you know, cedar cedar slats. Yeah, we build our own bench, and then the unit itself is actually relatively inexpensive. I mean, it runs off 220, right? But you stick that in and and that's it. It's it's it's pretty straightforward uh uh to do them at home. Uh coal plunge, lots of different ways to do it. I a little bit of One more thing I want to hit on now, Spencer. Uh uh red light therapy. Um it's an easy once you have sauna, it's an easy thing to add. So are you doing that at C Sue too? Red light.

SPEAKER_02

We do not have we do not have red light. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Do you have red light in your sauna?

SPEAKER_02

Uh we don't have it here. I I've done it one for a year. I did it like twice a week at a place close to us. And and uh loved what I was reading about it.

Memberships, Recovery, And Better Sleep

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, there's there's a lot of benefits. I I've I added that in about four months ago. Um, and and there's panels that can be put in. And you know, I I think I I don't know. I'm doing I I how much of this is placebo and how much of it is something new, but but it seems to be good. But I what I like about it is when you can stack some of these things on top of each other, it's not one more thing. It's now I'm in there, I'm doing my sauna, and I'm getting the red light exposure. So wanted to bring that up for folks listening. Well, this is awesome. Tell us, tell us uh uh C Sue, what's your what's your website, what's your URL? Let's give you a big shout out here.

SPEAKER_00

It's CsuIdaho.com, and that's our Facebook, Instagram, everything CSU Idaho. Okay. So it's S-I S-I-S-S-I-U-Idaho.com.com.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and and we're pulling it up here. Uh Revitalize your body and mind. Uh you got some pictures of the saunas and the cold plunge. Uh, I know from Ryan you have some monthly monthly programs that you can do.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, we have punch passes, we have memberships. Um, we have four, eight, twelve, or unlimited. The eight and the unlimited are our most popular because people find because it is scientifically addicting with the release of dopamine. When people come and do it, they come and do it regularly. And we've lately had a lot of construction and laborers because they're after the day, they're like, oh, I'm just so spent. And they come in and it like perks them up and um just rejuvenates and makes them feel good to go sleep for the day. And that's one thing that one benefit that I've when I've talked to people is the benefit of sleeping better or deeper with the contrast therapy. It's the number one benefit for everybody. I mean, there's a lot of benefits.

Closing Thanks And Where To Find Sisu

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and then Andy and I's podcast with that was the one before this episode. The the importance of sleep is right there. Exercise, strength training, sleep is right after that. So this does add to that too, which is a a really nice benefit. Yeah. Well, Spencer, hey, thank you for coming on. Uh, this was this was awesome.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, thank you. It was good to be here. Thanks for adding another cool thing to our city. Appreciate it. You're welcome. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01

Thanks, everybody.